VR Health Insider Podcast – Episode 5: Cix Liv

Welcome to a brand new episode of the VR Health Insider Podcast!

Be a part of us as we welcome again Cix Liv of LIV, YUR and REK for Half 2 of our interview with him. He’s a digital health pioneer utilizing XR applied sciences to enhance the world of sports activities and health.

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Episode 5 – Cix Liv – Half 2

Preston Lewis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the VR Health Insiders podcast, for the creators who’re constructing the way forward for the VR and AR sports activities and health industries that can revolutionize the way in which the world will play sports activities, work out and get match along with your hosts. Preston Lewis and Ryan DeLuca, the founders of Black Field VR, who’re constructing the world’s first full health VR fitness center and convey many years of expertise from creating a few of the largest health know-how firms on this planet. They’re bringing collectively the perfect and brightest minds that will help you and your organization succeed within the VR health revolution.

All proper. Welcome to half two of our interview with Cix Liv, who’s a VR, AR XR guru and pioneer. In our earlier Half 1 Episode with Cix, he defined his background, which actually make clear how creators have to have a ardour for the tech and trade they need to break into, and in addition to construct shortly and keep near the voice of the shopper to essentially perceive what they’re loving and hating.

Let’s decide up with our final query from the earlier podcast the place Cix shares insights as to one of the simplest ways to gather person suggestions for a [00:01:00] product.

Do you’ve any small suggestions so far as the way you go about intelligently accumulating that suggestions? Is it simply straight up scouring the Fb posts, establishing a Discord? Or do you’ve particular issues that you simply do, for instance create surveys, do focus teams, or how does that course of go for you with accumulating the suggestions?

Cix Liv: Should you talk with an individual, like, straight, it’s form of just like the distinction between speaking to somebody by way of 4Chan and speaking to somebody by way of their face. Like face-to-face. Proper?

should you’re on 4Chan, you’re gonna shit on all the things. It’s nearly like straight from mind stem to face, proper? Like “this fucking is horrible, that shit blah, blah, blah, blah.” After which after they speak to you, they’re gonna be like, “effectively, I believe you must, , enhance this” or no matter. Proper? So, I believe it’s getting each of these views. Proper? As a result of what you miss whenever you’re chatting with their customers are those that didn’t even care sufficient to speak to you, proper? Normally [00:02:00] the customers that you simply’re speaking to are someplace between precise customers and professional customers. Proper?

And also you’re often getting not lots of the suggestions of the folks that simply turned immediately. Proper? They don’t wanna fucking reply to you. They don’t give a shit, they don’t wish to inform you what their expertise was. So that you’re gonna have a blind spot on that class of potential customers. Proper?

So for these, you’re gonna need to, like, discover it anecdotally by way of, like, Fb posts or unhealthy evaluations, and this is the reason I’d at all times chase the unhealthy evaluate individuals. Should you’re constructing that shopper product to know what’s churning individuals from the start and what enhancements can I make for these informal customers, after which the professional customers, ought to we cater to them or not? So I believe that getting these three views and possibly bucketing individuals in these three issues, is an effective option to iterate in your product.

Preston Lewis: That’s good recommendation.

Ryan DeLuca: And it appears like, I imply, the troublesome half, in fact is simply having that open [00:03:00] mindset. Proper? It’s very easy to, such as you stated, low cost the destructive evaluations, or when anyone’s telling you one thing you wish to like clarify it. And relatively than get extra details about why do they assume that, and what would they like, how would we alter it? Typically you instantly wanna go into, like, defensive mode. However I agree with you, like, interacting with the group as a lot as you probably can. Creating alternatives for these interactions, like, by way of, like, locations like Discord, on-line, or for us really within the fitness center. Taking customers out to breakfast or lunch, and actually digging into it. And doing it from a spot of studying, not a spot of simply attempting to make them say good issues, and taking that mindset again to the product.

Preston Lewis: A few of our greatest suggestions has come from our form of squeakiest wheels, if you’ll. Those who, after they do strategy it, it’s like this, , they’re possibly rage quitting on an expertise or one thing like that. And it’s, to your level, it’s good to have these individuals which might be at the least passionate sufficient to present us the suggestions that we will hearken to after which iterate. As a result of it’s often, it’s often on the mark for bigger teams of our customers. So, yeah. Recognize that recommendation, man. That’s superior.

Cix Liv: Yeah.

Ryan DeLuca: Effectively, let’s get into thrilling new issues [00:04:00] that you simply’re doing. So, um, now not with YUR, um, and now you’ve began a brand new AR sports activities firm referred to as REK and we’d like to be taught much more about that. So how’d that come about? What made you determine to begin that and, uh, inform us somewhat bit concerning the product.

Cix Liv: The newest firm I began is REK. So it’s form of a mixture of the 2 prior firms within the learnings that I had there. So, LIV, the largest studying was how can we attain the individuals outdoors the headset? How can we make it attention-grabbing for individuals to observe? Should you mix that with health, which , is in my view the largest use case of headsets, the information means that retention for health associated apps is twice as excessive as the rest in VR.

Yeah, really, that’s one small level to say at YUR that we observed. So we had an underlying tracker that labored on the headset it doesn’t matter what. Proper? And what we acknowledged is that when individuals used their headset for health, they used it over twice as lengthy.

So the typical utilization [00:05:00] size for a headset was about eighteen minutes. However after they used it for health it went as much as forty. That was an enormous studying for me, proper? So the massive studying from LIV was we have to present what individuals are doing and we have to make it cool for different individuals to observe.

The most important studying from YUR was headsets getting used for health have the perfect retention. And, , I consider essentially it’s the largest use case of HMDs. Um, so should you mix these two learnings of health and spectating, you create, what is actually sports activities. Proper?

I began this firm beneath this premise that, , sports activities are going to be the subsequent huge factor. And the rationale I consider that’s as a result of I did some ideation in augmented actuality and it form of fell into the identical problems with VR, which is, like, why the fuck do I placed on a headset? Proper? And lots of AR apps have that very same problem the place they’re like, “okay, I placed on a headset so I can play puzzles with my pal who’s additionally bodily there.” After which at that time, I’m similar to, “why don’t you simply fucking [00:06:00] put a puzzle there?” Proper? Like, why are we digitizing that have when it’s one thing that you are able to do in actual life?

Or like, “you wish to do augmented actuality basketball? Why don’t you simply play basketball?” Proper? Like, the individual’s already there. A basketball is, , like twenty bucks. Proper? It’s like know-how attempting to unravel an issue that doesn’t exist. Proper?

So, , there was lots of people who have been doing VR sports activities and for me, I used to be like, “effectively that’s not gonna work in AR, since you’re finally simply gonna churn out and do the true factor.” Proper? For this reason I’ve an issue with VR sports activities; I consider that the issue with VR sports activities is that the final word purpose is whenever you grow to be adequate at it, you flip into the true factor.

What I grew to become fascinated with is, like, Tron. Let’s make a sport that doesn’t exist in actual life. You watch any sci-fi film that’s ever existed. Proper? [00:07:00] And after they present the way forward for sports activities it’s often comparatively comparable. Proper? Individuals doing stuff and like dueling one another and killing one another digitally, doing stuff which you could’t do in regular sports activities. Like, you possibly can’t kill your pal in basketball.

Sci-fi motion pictures form of demonstrated what the way forward for sports activities might appear like, and generally you don’t wish to combat towards the cultural zeitgeist of one thing and simply comply with by way of with it.

I began this firm with my co-founder Bart.

He was a senior AR engineer at Apple. And , one of many issues he’s at all times been actually focused on is, what are legitimate use instances of AR that may really exist proper now? And so he constructed a laser tag recreation that received the primary place for an open laptop imaginative and prescient contest final 12 months.

And mainly I reached out to him and I used to be like, “hey, , like, we should always take into consideration what’s gonna be, like, the Beat Saber of AR? As we transfer to AR, what’s gonna be a correct use case of headsets?” So after we first got here collectively,[00:08:00] we have been testing issues like House Pirate Coach Enviornment.

So House Pirate Coach Enviornment, it’s thirty by thirty ft, and it’s like a laser tag recreation the place you run round and also you shoot at one another in VR. Proper? And so we have been testing video games like that, and to start with, it was such a fucking ache within the ass to discover a place that was thirty by thirty ft precisely. After which the way in which that you simply draw the Guardian with the Quest was an enormous nightmare. So it needed to even be even greater than that. And if it was outdoors, we’d need to hotspot it, and it could solely work throughout sure occasions of the day and all this nightmare. However then one other large factor that we observed, is that whenever you really bodily run in VR, it’s so uncomfortable. Your mind begins freaking out.

It’s like, “the place the fuck are you? Like, are you gonna run into one thing? Is somebody gonna mug you?” It must be AR whenever you’re operating. When you introduce operating, there must be augmented actuality.

Ryan DeLuca: [00:09:00] Like, I agree. Like, I’ve by no means skilled really operating in VR. Um, yeah, however you’d need to, like, have a ridiculous quantity of belief.

Cix Liv: Yeah. I imply, should you’ve performed any boxing recreation in VR and punched something, proper? I keep in mind I punched a desk one time and my complete hand was bleeding, however I didn’t notice till I took off the headset and I used to be like, “holy shit.”

Preston Lewis: Oh, wow.

Ryan DeLuca: There’s much less ache notion, so I suppose that might be good and unhealthy. There’s a complete subreddit of VR to ER. Proper? Uh, for a cause.

Cix Liv: Oh, is it actually referred to as VR to ER?

Ryan DeLuca: Oh yeah. Persons are exhibiting them destroying issues or hurting themselves.

Preston Lewis: It messes with the immersiveness. Proper? As effectively. As a result of, yeah, such as you stated, like, when you do this one time, you then’re not excited about being within the expertise. You’re excited about hitting one thing. Identical factor occurred to me after I was, uh, I used to be enjoying one of many baseball video games and it miscalibrated my place and so I used to be, like, inches from a wall and went to swing for a pitch and simply slugged the wall as exhausting as I probably might. Yeah, I’m not enjoying that anymore.

Cix Liv: The second you introduce [00:10:00] operating, that worry turns into a lot extra realized.

Preston Lewis: Attention-grabbing.

Cix Liv: Your physique actually begins freaking out. Trigger it’s, like, is that an actual wall or is {that a} digital wall? The way in which these video games sync, they interlace the avatar on high of the individual. Proper? But when that’s off by any vital diploma, you’re simply gonna run head first into you’re a pal. And simply slam into them. Proper? I essentially consider that when you develop out of the restricted footprint of VR, it must be AR, should you’re like operating and doing stuff like that.

However there’s large, large challenges with AR. One of the apparent ones, should you begin constructing for this, is that, like, any of those cross by way of headsets, they don’t really section the gamers correctly. So what finally ends up taking place is that all the things renders in entrance of the individual. So say that you simply’re, like, competing towards another person. Proper? And that individual is there and also you wanna put a purpose behind them. Oh, it sounds easy. Proper? However you [00:11:00] can’t, as a result of the purpose must render in entrance of them. It may’t minimize the individual out and render the item behind them.

So it’s a must to do immensely sophisticated technical stuff to unravel one thing that wouldn’t exist in VR. Proper? Since you don’t have that very same downside in VR the place it’s a must to, like, section the individual out. So it’s a must to introduce an invisible avatar that renders on that very same individual, the place the individual is, after which it’s a must to be sure that the individual is synced correctly.

After which, you’re creating that cutout in entrance of the purpose that’s behind them. In any other case, you’ll see the small purpose, however it’ll render in entrance of the individual, even when they’re, like…

Preston Lewis: That’s attention-grabbing. So it’s like real-time rotoscoping slash masking. That’s attention-grabbing.

Cix Liv: For this reason, , after we introduced REK, or no matter, we did a extremely easy factor. We did spell duals. Proper? And the rationale we did spell duals have been, okay, you’re punching. This can be a mechanic that anyone can perceive. [00:12:00] And one of many greatest issues for me that I decide as a hit standards, is the simplicity of preliminary adoption. So whenever you placed on a headset, the period of time that it takes somebody to know methods to play a recreation is extremely necessary. Trigger I’ve demoed VR for hours and hours and hours, and the longer that point takes, the upper probability that they’re gonna churn out. Proper? In order that must be, like, as slender as attainable.

So we began, okay, you’re punching on the individual, no buttons. Quite simple. Proper? After which the rationale it’s a spell duel, is since you don’t need to render any objects behind them. So it wasn’t similar to, hey, we awakened and we have been like, “Hey, let’s do a spell twin like Harry Potter or some shit.” It was based mostly off the constraints of the Quest headset. Proper?

Like, we will’t have targets behind them. We are able to’t do all this different fancy stuff with out a large quantity of engineering effort. So the bottom bar for us have been simply, “effectively, let’s punch Fireballs at one another.” And in order that’s form of the rationale why that preliminary demo was [00:13:00] the way in which it was.

Preston Lewis: Small little be aware there for our customers, form of placing a pin in the truth that we talked about you getting scrappy with person suggestions and letting that form of information product choices. That was a very good instance you simply gave of enjoying within the sandbox of what the know-how can really do and attain and discovering enjoyable, as quick as attainable within the expertise. So, that’s good.

Ryan DeLuca: An enormous a part of REK, and why individuals appear to love us a lot additionally, is with the ability to spectate. Proper? To allow them to really watch it from the surface. What you actually put a give attention to with REK, was making it in order that different individuals can watch it in actual time and cheer them on in actual time such as you would a sport. And the way did you get that to work and what have you ever discovered from that kinda skill?

Cix Liv: We realized from fairly early on that having any kind of serious obstacles, wouldn’t solely be complicated for the gamers, however create visible conflicts for spectators. Proper? Once you’re watching a soccer recreation otherwise you’re watching a soccer recreation or [00:14:00] one thing, they don’t have like partitions. Proper? Hypothetically if a digital camera existed in soccer they usually had all these partitions all over the place, you wouldn’t be capable to see what the gamers are doing. It’s design challenges like that which might be necessary, however they’re additionally limiting. Proper? Now you possibly can’t do lots of the shit that you simply’ve accomplished in VR with all these cool environments. Principally the atmosphere nearly disappears at that time. Proper? You possibly can’t have a fancy atmosphere should you’re attempting to spectate. So, I believe that that’s additionally gonna be one thing to consider that we’re gonna have to determine. We could need to render one thing totally different for the gamers contained in the headset than what individuals outdoors see. So, like, within the headset you’ll see opaque pillars, however within the spectator view they’re clear. Proper?

Like, all these design choices that you simply’re gonna need to make, that you simply wouldn’t need to even take into consideration in VR, should you’re designing deliberately for spectating. The last word product that [00:15:00] we’re gonna launch will not be gonna be a spell duel recreation in the identical capability. Um, however yeah, we have been simply, , what’s the most simple factor that we will do? And what’s the mechanic that anyone on this planet can perceive? And yeah, that’s form of the place that got here.

We’ve been engaged on fairly a couple of totally different recreation ideas and within the subsequent few months we’ll announce that, uh, and it’s not gonna be fairly the identical because the spell duel for the ultimate product, so.

Ryan DeLuca: Effectively, now I’m excited to listen to extra about that.

I don’t know if there’s the rest you needed to say about creating REK and like the selections that have been made round that.

Cix Liv: So we initially got here on this concept, like, “hey, we’re gonna do LBE and stuff”. Proper? After which we really went by way of the method of attempting to get into the LBE recreation and, uh, whew, man, I don’t…

Ryan DeLuca: Location based mostly leisure, so precise retail footprint. Proper?

Cix Liv: Yeah, yeah. So we checked out Sandbox and we have been like, okay, Sandbox has all these areas, [00:16:00] however they’re capital costly, ? So then we have been like, “okay, so we’ll ship individuals {hardware} and have them set it up at their venue.” And we have been like, “okay, however then we’re gonna have like a 15 12 months outdated recent outta highschool attempting to handle this shit. In order that’s gonna be a nightmare and a half attempting to, like, handle that remotely.” Um, so we have been simply, , we tried to work some channel companions on it and we simply realized the LBE technique is one thing that we simply couldn’t afford, truthfully. You recognize, we couldn’t afford to even strive it.

So we’re going again to approaching it as creating shopper product. That’s additionally like the place my specialty comes from, like constructing in VR, is on the patron facet. So we’re gonna have a VR mode that connects to an AR mode, and our greatest focus is gonna be constructing the bridge between these two worlds. How do you really get individuals to convey a headset outdoors? And I believe that’s an unsolved downside. And the way in which I like to clarify it, in essentially the most succinct means attainable, is REK is [00:17:00] attempting to do to headsets what Niantic, , Pokemon Go did to telephones. Which is get individuals to, like, consider their gadgets as nearly like a health extension of themselves. Or, like, utilizing that to stroll round.

I do assume that in some unspecified time in the future we could return into LBEs, however it’s probably gonna be extra like UFC tournaments, excessive manufacturing worth, , advertisers, no matter. As a result of, yeah, it’s actually costly and we don’t have the, , we didn’t have the cash to try this. Proper?

Preston Lewis: We’ve observed that as you’re constructing these experiences, one of many stuff you’ve accomplished, you and the staff have accomplished rather well is making them look cool. Not solely within the expertise, however within the advertising and marketing. We form of talked about the viral movies and issues that you simply did early on. It sounds kinda like a easy factor. Proper? To make issues look cool. As a result of that is future tech, this new tech, and it looks like it’d be simple to make it cool. However, with Black Field VR, we’ve needed to combat the notion within the early days, at the least that VR Health was just for [00:18:00] tremendous techy individuals.

However you guys have accomplished simply an superior job making it approachable and funky. Even trying on the REK movies, these are additionally getting a bunch of consideration and simply kudos to you and the staff on making the tech look cool.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s a such a very good level. So many occasions some new VR health factor comes out or exercise recreation, and it’s similar to the worst graphics, the worst advertising and marketing. And clearly that’s not an important factor, , in lots of experiences. Like, we at all times speak about Minecraft, for instance, , beginning out extra pixelated form of stuff.

It’s at all times, like, man, individuals wanna look cool. Like, , such as you stated, it’s like no one desires to experience a Segway, however we’ll experience a cool fowl scooter down the highway. Proper? You recognize, it’s like the identical factor, only a totally different configuration. So, such a very good level that Preston made is, like, all of your stuff appears fashionable and funky, that folks wanna be part of it.

Preston Lewis: It’s superior. Earlier than we jumped on right here, I used to be a few of your stuff and also you form of poked enjoyable on the, uh, what was it? Horizon Worlds or one thing like that. And you’ve got, like, you’ve the form of the dorky form of graphics and stuff, after which you’ve you’re a hero shot. I assumed that was actually good. I imply, that’s one other factor that’s actually necessary, once more, in driving [00:19:00] adoption is that device of contrasting. Proper?

And exhibiting individuals, like, it doesn’t need to be this, it may be this. Something that we’ve seen you do, it’s, you’ve accomplished a extremely good job with that.

Cix Liv: You’re speaking concerning the tweet the place it was like their Metaverse our Metaverse, after which it was just like the… yeah.

Preston Lewis: Yeah. That was superior.

Cix Liv: I imply, to be sincere, Meta is making it fairly simple, okay. I’ve to be considerably on their good graces, so I’m sorry upfront. However, uh, you actually gotta work in your advertising and marketing. The Horizons World stuff, I consider, is so unhealthy that it’s taking down our complete trade.

I consider Horizon Worlds is so poorly marketed, and such a foul product, that’s taking down the complete VR area. As a result of whenever you go into the cultural zeitgeist of speaking to individuals about Metaverse. Proper? The very very first thing they’re gonna consider is the shitty trying Zuck avatar and, , Horizon Worlds And that’s by intention, that Meta is, like, that is the Metaverse, proper? And it’s discrediting [00:20:00] what so many cool issues that we’ve constructed on this area appear like. And it’s actually disappointing, as a result of I believe it’s such a foul allocation of assets, and it’s such a foul search for headsets that it’s really hurting all of us.

Ryan DeLuca: A number of the commercials they make are superb. You recognize, after they present, like, what it’s wish to be in VR and put the headset on. Now you’re on this large factor and simply thoughts blowing. And also you’re proper, and clearly it’s nonetheless early days, so we’re all hopeful. Proper?

As a result of I agree with you, like, with the quantity of funding that they’re placing into it, they’ll make or break it, ? And in the event that they do an incredible job, the {hardware} will get to the place it must be. It’s gonna be very useful for all of us. However you’re proper, it might convey us down if it’s not the product that the mainstream desires.

Cix Liv: I’d look into the PICO if I have been you guys, I don’t know should you used the PICO 4 in any respect, however, like, this factor is all the things the Quest 2 ought to be. It’s thinner, it’s smaller, it’s extra light-weight, it’s designed extra for health. It’s all the things the Quest 2.5 ought to have been. And as an alternative, they got here out with a Quest Professional, which is $1,500 that has face [00:21:00] monitoring and eye monitoring, however it’s even heavier than the Quest 2. And the burden was already an enormous downside. I simply I don’t get it.

Preston Lewis: You talked concerning the AR, VR experiences that you simply’ve constructed or are constructing. What are your favourite AR, VR sports activities and health experiences as we speak? And what makes ’em good?

Cix Liv: I actually like this recreation referred to as Blaston. I used to be enjoying it so much within the pandemic. So it’s a twin recreation, it’s one v. one, and also you’re taking pictures these varied velocity projectiles at one another and there’s no type of locomotion. You’re each on these small pillars, after which what it finally ends up changing into, is like, you’re having to do lots of dodging… it’s actually energetic. I believe I hit like a thousand energy an hour enjoying that at full depth. I actually preferred that.

One of the best sports activities kind recreation in VR proper now might be Nock. So should you’ve tried Nock, Nock makes use of arm locomotion the place you maintain a set off and also you form of fly within the air after which it makes use of [00:22:00] bows. So that you’re taking pictures arrows at a ball.

I believe my greatest recommendation for individuals who construct VR and AR content material, is on the absolute elementary of what that is, it has to really feel good. If it doesn’t really feel good, nothing else fucking issues. You may make the perfect graphics on this planet, you can also make an incredible storyline, you can also make regardless of the fuck particle results which might be superb. If the bottom mechanics don’t really feel good, none of that shit issues.

And what completely, completely represents that is Gorilla Tag. Should you have a look at a screenshot of Gorilla Tag, you’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” They’ve handed Beat Saber for essentially the most evaluations on the Quest now. They’re now the primary fucking utility, they usually’re not even within the retailer. And the rationale for that goes again to the purpose that I made right here, at its baseline, there’s a locomotion methodology. And the locomotion methodology is mainly you operating in your fingers. Proper? [00:23:00] No buttons, no complexity in any way. And it’s train. It’s like tag, it’s mainly like tag for teenagers. And the children are in there and it positively will get offensive so much, so possibly that’s why they’re not in the primary retailer. But it surely’s mainly youngsters operating on their arms, yelling at one another. And that grew to become the primary. I’m not even kidding. They’re simply screaming at one another they usually’re simply operating like this.

Preston Lewis: That’s superior.

Cix Liv: Feels good. Feels good. It doesn’t really feel good nothing fucking issues. And your app goes to flop.

Ryan DeLuca: Anytime I’m attempting to reload a gun in one among these sophisticated form of first individual shooters, I suppose my definition of VR, they’re all first individual, ?

But it surely’s like, I’m hitting my controllers collectively, or I’m attempting to do that factor and the man’s coming at me, and I can’t fairly get the little elements of reload. It’s like, it kills it for me, as a result of it’s like, I’m positive I might get good at, I’m positive if I performed at one other ten hours, I’d in all probability like, , don’t have any downside.

However at first it’s simply, you’re simply, it’s very awkward.

Cix Liv: You recognize Denny from Cloud Head, proper? He’s a VR OG and he’s made a bunch of [00:24:00] experiences. His unique video games have been form of like Myst, like, Name of the Starseed, the place you want, would mainly clear up puzzles in VR with actually excessive constancy. And he constructed Pistol Whip, you guys know Pistol Whip, proper? And Pistol Whip is mainly similar to Time Disaster on rails when it comes to, like, the psychological math and what that you must do. You recognize, you’re going from extraordinarily advanced, and dynamic and superb graphics into, like, mainly Cel Shaded Time Disaster.

It was his most profitable title. And, like, I believe lots of recreation builders are mad about that. They usually go, ” why can’t now we have superb graphics? Why can’t now we have dynamic storylines? Why can’t now we have all this different shit?” And it’s like, effectively, if it doesn’t really feel good, individuals are simply gonna use their console. They’re simply gonna go play their Ps. Proper?

Preston Lewis: You form of alluded to designing in recreation mechanics and interplay patterns which have decrease cognitive load, proper? In order that the sport continues to be enjoyable and folks keep immersed. So what do you’re feeling like [00:25:00] is lacking from the AR, VR sports activities and health trade as we speak?

Cix Liv: Effectively, if I informed you that I’d be freely giving my secrets and techniques.

Preston Lewis: There we go.

Cix Liv: So I’ve divulged all the things.

Preston Lewis: Wonderful, inform us your first identify, then. Wonderful. Simply inform us your first identify.

Ryan DeLuca: Yeah, what’s your actual identify?

Preston Lewis: Yeah, what’s your beginning identify?

Cix Liv: I believe which you could form of, like, paint the image of what I believe goes to be the long run based mostly off what I’ve stated previously. Which is, , low cognitive load, simple to know, cause to placed on the headset is energetic, , attention-grabbing for individuals to observe. After which the largest situation in our area, by far, is working across the limitations of the {hardware}. Proper? As a result of like, oh my God, I can inform you what number of occasions I ideated on some shit, and I turned out as, like, can’t do it. It’s, like, ninety p.c of the shit you construct in our trade, falls into “sounds good, doesn’t work.”

Trustworthy to God, it’s like nearly each fucking concept that I’ve, it’s [00:26:00] like, “oh, , I can’t do this due to Fb platform management. I can’t do this as a result of we don’t have decrease physique monitoring. I can’t do this as a result of the hand monitoring wasn’t skilled to work outdoors, so it solely works in low gentle environments. I can’t do this as a result of, , the second you set a weight in your hand, it may well’t detect your hand anymore. So you possibly can’t quantify the health.” Proper?

One other huge situation with creating for AR, is that you simply don’t have entry to the digital camera information, it simply mainly is available in as a shader. That’s it. And in order that limits a complete bunch of stuff that you are able to do. After which there’s no dying digital camera in it, so you possibly can’t simply section gamers out. You recognize, there’s some like laser tag ideas that folks have made with the Quest. They usually create this video and it makes it look so good.

It’s, like, “okay, there’s individuals of their workplace they usually’re hiding behind containers they usually’re taking pictures at one another, that’s gonna be so fucking superb.” Proper? And you then go about to do it your self and develop it, like something like that, and also you’re, like, “holy shit, this [00:27:00] is unimaginable”. Like, to start with, you possibly can’t flip off the guardian for the Quest until you’re in dev mode. Okay? How many individuals are in dev mode. Proper? Like, individuals on SideQuest, nobody else. So, you possibly can’t make an AR expertise that has the guardian off. And also you’re gonna what, draw a thirty foot guardian each single time in your workplace? Proper? In order that’s an enormous situation. After which I discussed the difficulty of, like, rendering individuals on high of it, after which the truth that there’s no shared SLAM maps?

So, like, if I’ve a SLAM map in my headset, I can’t share it to any headset round me within the Quest ecosystem. You possibly can within the Vive, so the Vive has shared SLAM maps. So, I’ve to go map the complete scene with my headset, after which I can’t share that SLAM map with anyone else. So all these ideas that folks present are very conceptual, as a result of you possibly can’t really do lots of this shit.

The factor that’s aged me essentially the most on this [00:28:00] area is the “sounds good, doesn’t work” shit, which seems to be like ninety p.c of something that you simply consider.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s attention-grabbing, as a result of often what we hear is “it’s irritating as a result of most individuals don’t have a headset”, ? In order that’s already the limitation that we’re coping with. Is that, it’s not that everyone’s bought a headset, however we will’t do these issues. That simply provides onto it, and it simply creates much less causes for individuals to get the headset.

And we run into the identical issues. It’s, , we’re caught in, uh, , SteamVR ecosystem. And, , we’re utilizing the Vive Professionals at, uh, Black Field. As a result of now we have to have some kind of option to do exterior monitoring of arms and fingers, with out coping with occlusion from regular hand monitoring for various actions, like squats and deadlifts and overhead press.

And so we’d love to have the ability to use a wi-fi headset. We’re nonetheless caught with the wired headset, as a result of we want to have the ability to have mainly the Vive monitoring pucks, or we use the Tundra Trackers. And, , there’s different issues like Kinect-style cameras that we doubtlessly might use. We’ve examined a bunch of these issues, however they’re not quick sufficient, , as a result of we’re doing lots of punching and slicing and actions, or they cope with occlusion as [00:29:00] effectively.

So, , it seems like all the things’s actually shut. Like, man, good hand monitoring and, , if we might simply get that in order that the sector of view is somewhat bit higher. Full physique monitoring, even when they’re simply form of like guess somewhat bit round, it might be actually attention-grabbing. However, such as you stated, these shared experiences are just about unimaginable with the constraints of this closed down {hardware}, and we’re gonna have all that stuff quickly, ? And when are we gonna have all that stuff we wish? It might be tomorrow, it might be an announcement from anyone tomorrow. It might be three years from now and we simply don’t know.

You’ve talked about Beat Saber, like that modding group. I completely agree, like, with out LIV, with out that modding group, and all the opposite songs and all the opposite stuff, it wouldn’t be the place it’s as we speak. It’s clearly nonetheless an superior recreation, however it might need been extra of an Audioshield and get some traction, however not lots of traction prefer it did. They usually’ve taken lots of that stuff away, particularly talking concerning the Quest platform, which is the largest platform as we speak, in fact.

Preston Lewis: The following query was gonna be describe your excellent AR, VR sports activities and health expertise. But it surely appears like it’s staying inside the sandbox of the {hardware} that’s presently [00:30:00] obtainable. Attempting to future forged somewhat bit, however not going loopy, as a result of as you talked about, should you construct too far forward all you’re gonna have is a bunch of tears and no shipped merchandise.

You talked concerning the spectator side of it, which we from day one we thought was tremendous necessary in Black Field VR. We at all times say that the good factor about sports activities, constructing a sports activities title, is which you could construct it and it’s infinitely replayable. Versus having to truly construct a title that’s form of this linear storyline that has x quantity of hours and you then gotta construct it once more. So, that’s large. We completely agree.

And never just for the enjoyable of the person, however we actually do consider that AR, VR spectating modes might be superb. Proper? We’ve all seen the World of Warcraft slash League of Legends, gigantic spectacles of eSports and stuff like that, so appears like the identical web page there.

After all provides you a exercise, in fact is immersive, makes use of patterns that aren’t an excessive amount of cognitive load. And mainly, simply, we have to one way or the other crack the whip on the {hardware} producers and get them to construct stuff quicker for us, as a result of[00:31:00] that’s what we run into.

Cix Liv: I’d attain out to PICO although. The PICO 4, , the 2 important focuses they’ve are health and video games, they usually appear to be taking health very severely. There’s additionally a extremely attention-grabbing cause for that, by the way in which.

In China, they’ve caps on what number of video, how a lot you possibly can play a online game per day. And should you can persuade the federal government that it’s a health system, you escape of that limitation. In order that’s really one of many small causes they’re hyper-focused on health, is that if they’ll persuade the federal government that it’s a health system and never a recreation system, they’ll really escape of that limitation.

That’s a small factor I found by taking place the trail of localizing to China.

Ryan DeLuca: Effectively, man, we’ve discovered a lot from you. I believe we bought like 1,000,000 notes right here. This’ll positively be our longest podcast ever, thus far. So, uh, actually respect it. I believe to wrap issues up, what’s subsequent for you? What’s subsequent for REK? We’ve, you’ve heard so much about, uh, these upcoming variations of the sport and what it’s not gonna [00:32:00] be, and somewhat little bit of what it’s gonna be, however the place, what’s subsequent for you and, and what are you guys, uh, as much as subsequent?

Cix Liv: I suppose you’d need to comply with my Twitter.

Preston Lewis: There we go. Name to motion.

Cix Liv: C I X L I V. Um, I’m prepared to reveal all the things concerning the previous of how I bought so far, however a few of the stuff that we’re engaged on sooner or later, I’d wish to maintain beneath wraps till we announce it. We’re positively going to be constructing one thing that works in AR and VR, and we’re positively going to construct a companion utility that lets you spectate that. After which, hopefully in some unspecified time in the future, transfer this into tournaments with brackets and leagues and, , all of the stuff that sports activities have.

I believe one of many huge issues I wanna depart individuals with, that’s one thing that, may be a light-weight bulb second. Is after we have been doing our assessments, we did a pilot, down in, um, Los Angeles. There have been a couple of various things that occurred that made me assume we’re happening the proper path.

Um, there was a [00:33:00] boyfriend and girlfriend who have been, , the boyfriend was going to go play towards his pal. And earlier than he performed, and he was placing on a headset, his girlfriend came visiting to him, gave him a kiss, and stated, “you higher win”. After which we had a second the place a dad was watching his son, and he was enjoying towards his son’s pal, and he was standing there subsequent to the TV like, , cheering on his son, like, very, very clearly, cheering on his son. And he might see his son and he might see how he was enjoying his pal and all this different stuff. And so these moments have been actually necessary.

However the factor that actually gentle bulb this to me, is that if this was a online game that by no means would’ve occurred, as a result of what would’ve occurred is, to start with, that girlfriend could be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” Like, “we’re at a venue”, like, “why are you going and sitting and enjoying League of Legends?”

Like, , “we’re right here to have enjoyable, what the fuck are you doing?” Proper? As a result of she couldn’t take part in what was taking place, as a result of she’d don’t have any [00:34:00] concept or the context of what the fuck is going on. Proper? And so that will’ve occurred. After which the identical factor would’ve occurred with the dad and his child. The place if his child came visiting and sat down and performed a online game, though it was, , quote on quote eSports, he’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing? We’re out right here to have enjoyable.” Once more, as a result of he couldn’t take part or perceive what was taking place. And so my huge obsession with this area is that I consider if we nail this, that is greater than the complete XR area, as a result of it breaks out of the area like that Beat Saber video did 5 years in the past.

And that’s why I do that. I consider that if that is nailed, XR sports activities grow to be greater than the complete area, as a result of it may well get adoption from individuals who aren’t in headsets. And that’s why I’m like, gentle bulb second. That is it. You recognize? Now, whether or not or not the {hardware} is gonna get there in time and, , [00:35:00] all this different fucking bullshit we cope with in our area is one other query. However, , that’s the hope. That’s the dream.

Preston Lewis: Yeah, so, all proper, that’s on a regular basis now we have. Thanks a lot, Cix for being right here with us. I’m positive our viewers actually appreciates it. And for anybody within the viewers, as at all times, we’ll put something within the present notes to get into contact with Cix and to become involved in what he’s doing. Actually respect it. Thanks once more.

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